After Emmy noms, ‘True Detective’ boss Issa López promises Season 5 will be ‘weirder’
It might drive Liz Danvers crazy, but if ever there were a reason to blast the Beatles’ rendition of “Twist and Shout” at full volume, “True Detective: Night Country” scoring 19 Emmy nominations might be it.
It’s the culmination of the HBO anthology series’ formidable fourth season, which became the most-watched iteration of the franchise after it debuted in January. Set in fictional Ennis, Alaska, the season starred Jodie Foster and Kali Reis as detectives trying to solve the case of eight men who operate the Tsalal Arctic Research Station who are later found frozen in a “corpsicle.”
In addition to the drama securing a nomination in the limited series category, Foster also received her first ever Emmy nod for lead actress in a limited series; she’s joined by Brie Larson (“Lessons in Chemistry”), Juno Temple (“Fargo”), Sofia Vergara (“Griselda”) and Naomi Watts (“Feud: Capote vs. the Swans”).
An especially notable distinction came with Reis’ own nomination for supporting actress in a limited series— alongside actors Dakota Fanning (“Ripley”), Lily Gladstone (“Under the Bridge”), Jessica Gunning (“Baby Reindeer”), Aja Naomi King (“Lessons in Chemistry”), Diane Lane (“Feud: Capote vs. the Swans”) and Nava Mau (“Baby Reindeer”). Reis and Gladstone’s nominations are an apparent historic first for Native American women in the Emmys’ acting categories.
“True Detective” was renewed for a fifth season, with showrunner Issa López, who was nominated Wednesday for writing and directing, once again at the helm. She is currently in the process of writing the new season.
The Times spoke with López — beaming in on Zoom from a mysterious location she jokingly chose not to reveal for fear it would have HBO reps squirming — and Reis, joining from South Philadelphia, about their excitement, the importance of the recognition of Indigenous performers and storytelling and getting texts from Foster.
Netflix led the Emmy nominations with 107 overall, but it was FX that received the most in the marquee categories, including a record tally for ‘The Bear.’
Congratulations on the Emmy nominations. I imagine it made the weeks of darkness and freezing weather worth it. Tell me how the morning played out for you.
López: I get very anxious, so I don’t watch the telecast of it. And I would love it if nobody would tell me anything until it’s done and I can just see it all. But everybody around me was going to immediately start posting. And they did. I think the first beat was Jodie, who has this group message with Kali and me, and she jumped on board to tell us. It was a beautiful thing.
Reis: I put the YouTube thing on to watch live; my husband had put it on and got everything all set up, and he’s sitting and watching, and the first one I found out to be nominated was Jodie. I found the show got nominated. And then I saw D’Pharaoh Woon-A-Tai and “Reservation Dogs” and was so excited. And they said the last category was comedy series, so I was like, “Oh, OK, I’ll find out whether I did or not later.” My phone rang and it was my manager, and he’s like, “Is this Emmy-nominated Kali Reis?” I was like, “Wait, I got nominated?!” That’s how I found out. I had no idea. My dog’s barking, my husband’s recording me. He’s crying. That’s how I found out. Then I got the text message from Issa and Jodie.
What does a text from Jodie look like on a morning like this?
López: She was over the moon. It’s all caps, lots of exclamation marks, which is extraordinary in the case of Jodie because her English is so perfect, and every word that she writes is so thoughtful and adult. She is passionate about the show, really, and that just warms my heart. Because, listen, this is a woman that has been nominated her entire life, so the fact that she’s this excited says a lot.
Television Academy voters checked off most of the boxes, but the nominations still managed to deliver a fair number of surprises, pleasant and otherwise, columnist Glenn Whipp writes.
Kali, you made history as the first Indigenous co-lead of an HBO series with your role in “True Detective: Night Country” and now you have made Emmys history too, a distinction you share with Lily Gladstone. What does it mean to you to not only be part of this moment of Indigenous artists being recognized by the mainstream, but also to create art that helps others like you see themselves as heroes of their own stories?
Reis: It’s hard to put it into words. I still see it as being a spectator of it. And being an admirer of someone like Lily Gladstone, and her getting nominated and knocking the doors off the hinges and holding the door open so there is no barrier anymore for the opportunities. To be part of the conversation in general, as an artist in the industry and being so new to this, and now to share this historical moment with somebody I highly admire, such as Lily Gladstone, and be one of the first, is so special. And to have “Reservation Dogs” and all this in the conversation, I’m still looking at it from the outside and admiring and feeling so excited. But then I’m like, “Oh my God, wait, that’s me too.”
It means a lot personally, of course, but collectively, it’s always been about we and showing what it looks like to have our stories be told. People ask, ‘How do you want to be represented?’ And having the allyship not just to tell historical stories [but also] to tell these contemporary stories that are not all happy, they’re not all sad, they’re funny, humanizes the Indigenous experience — especially from my point of view, from being a mixed Indigenous woman from the Northeast and being Two Spirit and being Cape Verdean and all these boxes I checked... We’ve always had to be the help [at] the table, or to be the people that they wanted to imitate and not ask questions. Now we’re sitting at the head of the table. And rightly so. We’ve been here, and we’re here to stay.
What do you hope decision-makers take away from this moment?
Reis: That they don’t need to make decisions. They can hold space for us to make our own decisions, and they don’t have to be scared to “take a chance.” Because I think it’s been looked at as taking a chance. It’s not taking a chance to do the right thing. That’s what I hope they see. It’s not, “We’re going to take a risk.” It’s not a risk; they’ve been risking trying to tell our stories for us, or assuming or twisting stories this whole time... The risk is assuming and having these assumptions, trying to be a mouthpiece for us and being so scared to tell the truth.
Issa, you gave us a portrait of Indigenous people in Alaska that most people don’t even know about or haven’t seen. What was important to you in approaching that responsibly as an outsider?
López: It’s a lesson in humility. You have to, first of all, understand that you understand nothing from the experience. I don’t understand the experience of living in this land, and I don’t understand the Indigenous experience anywhere, but particularly in a place so removed from my upbringing and my cultural experience. So that said, storytelling is storytelling — that part, I feel very in my element and very secure. So what I can do is open up the structure of the storytelling to then create the space for the people with experience to come in the story and guide me and say, “This will work, this won’t work.” And more importantly, “How about this?” which are ideas that I could never imagine and that could be beautiful and highlight the story I’m trying to tell. So first of all, listen, and bring the other kids to play with you. Let’s do it together. Then it becomes a joy. So the women that came on board — especially the women, but we had all genders of Indigenous voices — were amazing. They came on board, they bonded immediately. They bonded with me, and they fell in love with a story and the purpose of what we were telling, and then they brought their experience, their culture, into it to make it true.
There are many indelible images in “Night Country,” but one of the most beautifully haunting and striking moments was the women filing into the kitchen in the finale. Issa, walk me through that scene with your writer hat on, and then with your director hat.
López: The first thing I knew when I conceived the story is that it was going to end with the women taking the solution of the violence into their own hands. I wanted to see them in power. I knew the beginning, and I knew the end... I knew from conception that if I played my cards right to get there, it was going to be so powerful and so satisfying. I am not a believer in in the deus ex machina or the exterior forces coming to solve your problems. I would never want to do that story. I love people understanding that the solution is in their hands.
The storytelling challenge was to create all that happening between those two. Once I had that, and we find the right women — we call them the Justice Ladies; never in the series, but for our team, it was the Justice Ladies. Once we found the Justice Ladies and their voices and their faces and we put them together, what I wanted to happen, happened naturally. I didn’t have to do much, because they absolutely embraced and understood the mission of “We are the strength, we are the solution.” And they just embodied it. Once they got there, it was so much fun. The scientists, the actors that played them, they were terrified of them — not because they were truly in danger, but these women came onto the set throat singing. Many of them were throat singers, and many of them are actual hunters, and they know how to handle a gun, and they were a force of nature, and they absolutely embodied it.
Reis: We are a very matriarchal society; the women are the life-givers, the caregivers, the hunters, it’s not women stay here, while men do this — especially where I come from, we are the decision makers, we are with the clan mothers. It’s almost flipped on its head that Indigenous women, especially in the United States, or Indigenous people, especially women, are invisible. So, [the ending] is the first time we really got to see the invisibility of our people work in [our] favor, as well as the realism of Indigenous women or Indigenous people having to take things into their own hands and have justice and really work with the environment, the elements, Mother Earth creator, to make the right thing happen.
Oddly enough, and funny enough, the nosy aunties, the Native aunties, are always the one that know all the tea. They know all the business... It meant so much, especially at the very end, for my character, Navarro, to be seen by our own people and to be accepted. And that was one of the scenes that I really felt deep in my heart. I related to it as well, to be seen and have a name and to be represented and be among instead of against. When I read that, I was like, “Wait a minute. Oh, snap, it’s the Justice League.” And to see them see themselves in that whole scene was just so loud. And I absolutely love that. I felt right at home.
As you think about Season 5, Issa, does this kind of recognition give you, maybe not confidence, but does it make you feel like, “OK, I’m on the right track.’ Is it validation?
López: You never have enough. That’s the thing. I’m so satisfied, truly, with the nominations, and I know people will say, “I don’t care about winning.” I don’t. From the beginning, when we were shooting, it would be like, “Oh, wouldn’t it be nice...” But it was a wild dream. This is my first attempt at doing something in English. So getting this is enormously rewarding, and it makes you realize that “You’re not lost. You know what you’re doing, even if it’s on a different level than what you’ve done before.” But that said, it makes me so excited about this new season because of everything I learned that I can use and go deeper and go bolder and be weirder. I can’t wait. I’m very excited about the job I’m doing right now. And this just confirms the things that you know in your soul; when you go with your God and you know that the story you’re telling is important, and it’s going to transport you, and you go with that, it pays.
Kali, how are you going to celebrate?
Reis: Oh, man, I’m going to text Issa. She has all the mezcal. It’s not Friday yet, but that’s how you celebrate. There’s so much to celebrate. I’m just really happy. Personally, this is my third crack at this new thing [acting]. To kind of mirror Issa, I’m on the right path, I’m on a good trajectory, I have something going. It motivates me to work harder. It’s the same way it was boxing. You win a title, you don’t relax. I gotta do more. I want to work harder. I want to get better.
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